Curse

romeo_longsword · Mar 22, 2006, 11:05 AM // 11:05

Just beening thinking, with the advantage of Expertise from the Ranger, which could allow a lot more skills spaming, would it be better off to be using the ranger as the dual dagger users, instead of using the Assassin as the main class?

Ermac · Mar 22, 2006, 11:11 AM // 11:11

Imo the dmg from 16 dagger mastery combined with the critical hit atribute makes Assasins better. ^^

Jenosavel · Mar 22, 2006, 02:50 PM // 14:50

The only advantage ranger has in expertise, and their ability to spam the attacks isn't too much different than an assassin with zealous daggers. Boy do assassins benefit from zealous daggers.

Guardian of the Light · Mar 22, 2006, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Don't forget that you get some extra armor if your a ranger.

Might be better for a ranger in PvE

mqstout · Mar 22, 2006, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Similarly, I've many-a-time considered R/W for expertising those warrior skills. I've not tried it, due to armor considerations.

NatalieD · Mar 22, 2006, 04:31 PM // 16:31

I imagine A/* and R/A will both be viable as dagger builds, much like we see both regular warriors and "thumper" R/Ws.

Rey Lentless · Mar 22, 2006, 06:39 PM // 18:39

I think A/R is a better way to do it. The assassin will have an extra pip, and they get energy from criticals (which they can jack up to the 40%+ range if they want), and the damage done with a 16 dagger is going to be significantly higher than 12 and no critical bonus. Tiger's fury or frenzy is a good idea with them though. I'm a big fan of frenzy though, and with some of the teleporting skills available to the assassin, I think frenzy is an option.

CKaz · Mar 22, 2006, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Yeah I've been giving it thought and was gung-ho R/A for awhile, leverage expertise skills too. But losing the '16' and critical attribute and a Pip...

R/W works as it saves energy with expertise and you gain a pip, but you lose the '16' and you don't gain extra benefit with Adrenaline skills and miss armor/dmg reduction.
A/W should work as it saves energy with expertise and the Dagger Mastery line is all about energy attacks, armor change shouldn't be bad, but you lose '16' and a pip.

Even that is a simplistic view - yeah got some synergies there but miss out on others, just like pretty much every decision. At least here though there are some immediately discernable benefits in the Dagger Mastery line.

Myodato · Mar 23, 2006, 12:10 AM // 00:10

As always, each combo has it's own strengths and weaknesses. In the case of R/A vs A/R though, the key one is actually quite subtle.

Both have an energy management primary attribute (lower cost of skills vs energy gained by attacking), and on paper Expertise is the better (some would say best) energy management attribute. It does, however have a basic flaw - only works on skills. If your build wants to take advantage of things such as Expose Defences (Hex spell, 10 energy, can't block or evade for 3....9 secs, 10 sec recharge), then Expertise won't cut it against a 4 regen 'sin gaining energy from crits. On the other hand, if you're purely focusing on attack skills and stances, nothing will make your build more effective and durable than Expertise.

So, in the end, same as every other build anyone has ever thought of - the key is what works with what you want to do, not what's 'best'.

romeo_longsword · Mar 23, 2006, 07:18 AM // 07:18

May I ask what a pip is?

flurry · Mar 23, 2006, 07:39 AM // 07:39

a pipes* is the arrows in your energie/health bar wich makes regen faster.

fallot · Mar 23, 2006, 08:42 AM // 08:42

I dont get why the Assassin doesnt have an IAS stance of his own.

Rey Lentless · Mar 23, 2006, 09:16 AM // 09:16

I found that curious initially, but I think that's balanced. The class already feels more self-sufficient than the other ones, so making you commit the secondary for an IAS skill seems fair. With the 4 pips and energy coming from criticals, it would be pretty easy to add some spell power from the secondary and still be a direct damage dealer. I think with the IAS not being available in the primary, it makes you make more of a choice as far as that goes.

LaserLight · Mar 23, 2006, 09:28 AM // 09:28

The main reason people would go R/A over Assassin primary for Dagger is that while Critical Hits has the potential to be the most efficient energy gain system around, it's very spotty and cannot be relied upon to perform in a pinch. Your energy management relies upon dealing critical hits.

Expetise, on the other hand, is a global bonus which will apply without fail to every single applicable skill one launches. It can be relied upon to the point of effectively calculating and predicting its effects. This makes it much more attractive to the average Joe than a sporadic, unpredictable attribute like Critical Hits.

But. Let's take a closer look at Critical Hits, shall we?

First off, using Assassin primary lets one punch themselves up to 16 Dagger Mastery, which automatically gives one a 4% better chance of scoring a critical hit than an R/A could (reasonably) go. This increases the chance of Critical Hits going off and giving you that extra +2 Energy.

Second off. Critical Hits, unlike Expertise, is offensive as well as defensive. Dealing a critical hit increases the damage dealt by an attack (duh, but hey), and Critical Hits increases the chance of dealing those critical hits. This means that the attribute boosts your damage output at the same time as it helps out your Energy.

Thirdly, let's just see what Critical Hits could do here. Using the standard 12/10/8 attribute with a Superior Dagger and Minor CH rune, we get 16 Dagger and 11 Critical Hits. This gives us, if I remember my critical ratios correctly, roughly a one-third chance per blow to inflict a critical hit. Given that daggers attack at a rate of one blow every 1.33 seconds, this basically means that, on average, you'll gain an extra 2 Energy once every four seconds.

That is roughly a pip and a half of regen, not counting the bolstered chance of criticals that 16 levelvs of Double Strike gives. Dagger Mastery 16 gives a 32-percent chance of Doulbe Strike, which in turn adds an extra one-third of one-third chance to attain a critical hit, adding an extra one-ninth chance for that +2 Energy. Not going to bother to figure that extra one-ninth in regen, but it's there.

The catch, of course, is that this only works while the Assassin is attacking, and it works at its best when the Assassin is attacking constantly, something that Assassins aren't really built to do. However, if they can manage it, Critical Hits is a much more effective method of energy management than most people give it credit for, and is only the second primary attribute thus far to directly increase the user's damage capacity (the other, of course, being the Warrior's Strength).

So. 16 Dagger, improved attack damage, and a perfectly reasonable energy management system - which doesn't work by breakpoints - is why someone would play an Assassin primary for daggers :-P. Unfortunately most people consider daggers, and Assassin primaries in general, useless at this point. I feel confident, however, that just like every other profession, Assassin primaries will find their niche. it may be a very narrow and none-too-desired niche, which will suck since I will hold firm to my plans for an Assassin primary, but it will be there. If for no other reason than to use such skills as Shroud of Silence or Expunge Enchantments at 16, in a similar manner as to what made Necromancer primaries popular again.

Here's hoping, anyways.

Vermilion Okeanos · Mar 23, 2006, 09:43 AM // 09:43

I don't see how a single class R/A can compare with A/W, A/R. A/Mo, A/N, A/E, A/Me, A/Ri.

How many possibility are you guys talking about? Everything in here argued based on R/A vs A.

While in terms of primary attribute, the critical chance are decent enough to keep my energy going last event.

The only reason I would go R/A is for a gazillion stances in Random Arena. Which I would never be, as I think that is pretty lame. If anything, I go A/R with bow; woot for quadruple shot with criticals! (dual->quickshot->savageshot)

Mist Walker Skarloc · Oct 22, 2007, 05:59 PM // 17:59

I'd go with Assassin. Critical Strike (yeah, Strike, not StrikeS - the attack, not the Attribute) makes up for your lack of Expertise. 'Course, you'll still need the Attribute.

Spazzer · Oct 22, 2007, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Assassin's energy management engine is better than Ranger's energy management engine, at least when it comes to daggers.

Shuuda · Oct 22, 2007, 06:08 PM // 18:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by fallot

I dont get why the Assassin doesnt have an IAS stance of his own.

Because it would certainly be imbalanced.

Mitchel · Oct 22, 2007, 06:15 PM // 18:15

Woooo Thread Res >< over a year old. But yeah, I'd go with Assassin.

Longasc · Oct 22, 2007, 06:18 PM // 18:18

The Assassin PvE skill Critical Agility tipps the scales in favor of the Assassin. Assassins can also use Assassin runes and headgear.

The benefits of high expertise go poof above 13/14, then you lack a dagger rune, a shadow or deadly arts rune and all Critical Strikes skills.

Lightning Reflexes, Whirling Defense and Throw Dirt might work in PvE, but it does not make up for the loss of the primary attribute line and the greatly increased chance to score critical hits.

Regardless of PvE or PvP, R/A builds were more gimmicky than effective. And in PvE I would prefer a real Ranger with a bow over an assassin most of the time.